Pitch Don’t Sell: Interview with Authors Peter Desberg and Jeffrey Davis
I recently spoke to Peter Desberg and Jeffrey Davis, authors of Pitch Like Hollywood: What You Can Learn from the High-Stakes Film Industry. Peter is the author of 23 books and has consulted for companies including Apple, Boeing and Toyota in the areas of pitching and persuasion, corporate presentations, and using storytelling and humor in business presentations. Jeffrey has more than 30 credits to his name, including Night Court, Remington Steele, and documentaries for A&E, Discovery, and The History Channel; has written and produced trade shows for Dick Clark Productions; and has consulted for Dell Computers, Toyota of America and Honda.
Adam: Thanks again for taking the time to share your advice. First things first, though, I am sure readers would love to learn more about you. How did you get here? What experiences, failures, setbacks or challenges have been most instrumental to your growth?
Peter: Years ago I taught a class called Instructional Humor. It was designed for professionals who made presentations. They learned how to infuse humor to get their points across. The tone in each class was light, until…
Each student had to make a presentation using the techniques they learned. That’s when I discovered that the number #1 fear in America really was fear of public speaking. I’ve been helping people learn to manage their stage fright and performance anxiety ever since.
I’ve also done research on the psychology of persuasion. It wasn’t much of a stretch from there to the study of Pitching. I was trained as a research psychologist, but I’m also a licensed clinical psychologist. I’m fortunate to be able to combine the empirical research literature with clinical practice helping people pitch.
Jeffrey: I’m third generation show business. My Dad was a writer who also produced shows like The Odd Couple. I followed him into the business despite his dire warnings. I got very lucky early in my writing career and was paired with someone with a similar background. We worked together steadily for twelve years. We were being groomed as showrunners. Then suddenly the partnership ended.
Afterward, people still saw me as part of a team. When I did get a meeting, I was overly protective and precious about my work. Many times I said, “No” out of fear. This led to the work drying up. It was the lowest moment of my professional life.
I’ve learned more from my setbacks than from my successes. Over the next twenty-five years I was offered jobs in advertising, encouraged to get a second degree in public relations, and worked in the field for many years. I also wrote corporate shows. In the mid 2000’s I began writing for television again and became a producer.
Adam: What do you hope readers take away from your new book?
Peter: Pitching involves a huge skillset that includes coming up with a great idea to pitch, creating the pitch to elicit support for it, researching the people you’re going to pitch to, practicing the pitch and remaining calm enough to present it.
There are three additional areas that we focus on that we think make a huge contribution expanding their competence in pitching:
Manage performance anxiety and stage fright – The book explains the mechanics of stage fright and presents a series of exercises that have been demonstrated to develop more control over managing it.
The Psychology of Persuasion - Most persuasion occurs below the level of awareness. You generally don’t know it’s happening to you. We present a host of techniques to help readers subtly nudge people toward their goals.
Using Hollywood Pitch Methodology. The pitch has been honed to a fine art in Hollywood. We present their strategies to make a pitch more emotion-driven because most decisions are ultimately decided there. We present methods to increase curiosity and maintain audience attention and present strategies to increase interaction with the audience.
Jeffrey: When Peter came to me with the idea for this book, I knew right away I wanted to work on it. It was the kind of book I needed to read. I’m someone who has struggled with stage fright and pitching. We noticed there were lots of pitch books out there with titles like, The Seven Rules of Pitching and The Fifteen Keys to the Perfect Pitch. There is no “one-size-fits-all” approach. These books don’t deal with the science of persuasion and stage fright.
Many business pitches are heavy on statistics and PowerPoint presentations but light on story. This book includes engaging interviews with successful people across industries. They provide multiple viewpoints and insights, but they all tell us that the best pitches are conversations. This means that you have to answer three questions: Why this product or service? Why are you the right person to be pitching it? Why now? Reading the chapters on the pitch process and preparation, practice and giving it, readers will learn how to present their most authentic selves.
Adam: What can anyone do to overcome stage freight or anxiety they may be feeling in advance of while presenting publicly?
Peter: Typically, if you’re worried about stage fright, you’ll be worried about what disaster may happen next. A good way to avoid such fears is to have prepared something you really look forward to saying every few minutes (e.g. stories, jokes, interesting examples, provocative questions - preferably counterintuitive). Each of these should have been validated in your previous presentations. This will get you looking forward to what you are about to do instead of worrying. You already know how the audience will respond. It’s energizing. Each of these big doses of confidence will help push your fears away.
Learn a form of breathing or relaxation exercise. Practice it, and use it as you are waiting to give your presentation.
Practice giving your presentation under distracting conditions. This will prepare you for the unexpected distractions that will inevitably occur during your presentation. It will enable you to show grace under fire.
Organize your talk logically so you don’t have to rely on notes. Avoid reading your presentation verbatim unless you like to talk over the sounds of snoring.
Jeffrey: The way I’ve learned to deal with it probably stems from my failed attempt at standup. I never wanted to feel that uncomfortable again. For a long time, I stayed seated at my desk. A lot of my friends didn’t understand. “You’re so comfortable at parties. Nobody works the room better than you.” To this day I’m not certain that was a compliment. I wondered why I was at ease at a party and so anxious before giving a talk?
Here’s the solution I came up with: “What if before the presentation while the equipment was being set up, I went into the audience, walked around the room and got to know as many people as I could. What I’ve discovered is that when we start the formal presentation, I’m not talking to a room full of strangers.
Adam: In your experience, what are the keys to crafting the perfect pitch?
Peter: Instead of listing all 837 rules for creating the perfect pitch, here are two of the main ones:
1. The most basic rule of presenting was explained to me when I was fortunate enough to interview John Scully. He said when he got his M.B.A. in Marketing they taught him to construct a presentation in terms of what the audience wants to hear, not what he wanted to say.
2. Pitch don’t sell.
Without these two rules, you might as well go home, but there are a few more skills and strategies that prove to be helpful. Here’s a bit more.
Research the goals, needs and culture of the people or organization you’re going to pitch to. Design your presentation to be consistent with that research. You want them to feel that if they accept what you’re pitching, they’ll feel good about how they see you and themselves. Sadly, research shows that if you don’t do this, you will put your audience into a skeptical state making them harder to convince that your ideas have merit.
Make sure to include any downside risk as part of the pitch. It demonstrates your integrity, and gives you control over the best way to present those risks. In the persuasion literature, this is known as the “Blemishing Effect.” It builds trust, which is essential in a pitch. Use any downside risk factors to increase the amount of conflict in the story you tell in your pitch to heighten interest. Make sure you resolve those conflicts by the end to reassure and encourage your audience.
Jeffrey: No pitch is perfect because everything depends upon the chemistry between people in the room. The buyer may have slept poorly the night before or is having trouble with a current project. If you want to prepare a pitch that works, focus on the things that are under your control. Learning to be persuasive and overcoming the fear of pitching are essential. Equally important is doing your homework on the buyer. What kinds of projects do they like? What have they worked on before?
The Hollywood model of pitching is at the center of a great presentation. Look for a compelling story to frame it. A story with a beginning, middle and a sense of an ending that demonstrates how you will solve the buyer’s problem. A story that makes them want to know more. It’s worked for well over a century in the toughest arena there is. Also, prepare an elevator story that shows the buyer who you are. Avoid being the hero of this story. It should show your passion for your work.
Adam: What are your best tips for salespeople?
Peter: Determine what the customer’s needs and wants are. Present your ideas so that they can see how your product or service helps them get to the place where they want to see themselves.
Marketer Seth Godin gives a wonderful example of a company that sells wine glasses for $25 each. That’s very expensive. Here’s the company’s pitch: Would you serve a $90 bottle of wine in a $2.00 wine glass? It shows how their product will take their customers to the place where they want to see themselves…and of course, how they’ll look to others.
Jeffrey: Your goal is to start a conversation that hopefully will lead to a sale. In David Mamet’s Pulitzer Prize winning play, Glengarry Glen Ross. the boss of a real estate office tells his sales force: “Always be selling.” It’s a wonderful line but in real life it’s the opposite of good advice. Nobody wants to be the target of someone who is “selling.” Selling is being talked at.
Adam: What are your best tips for public speakers?
Peter: Above all else…be memorable. Use stories and anecdotes to make your main points. Your audience will remember those. (I run into students who I haven’t seen for years and they say, “I still remember that story where…).
Organize your presentation using a three-act structure, to get the audience interested in your project and become curious to see where your pitch is going.
Use persuasive elements to draw them to you.
Use key words that evoke positive imagery toward your project
Present information that fits their views rather than conflicting points of view. It makes it easier for them to agree with you.
Jeffrey: Peter and I have seen many speakers ignore a major rule of communication. First connect. I’ve seen smart people get up at a lectern and read off a piece of paper, never looking out at the participants. Sometimes they actually hide behind their piece of paper. PowerPoint is fine as a tool unless you violate certain rules. Don’t put text on the screen that’s different than what you’re saying. Switching back-and-forth your audience will miss parts of both. Don’t read what’s on your screen to your audience.
Adam: What are your three best tips applicable to entrepreneurs, executives and civic leaders?
Peter: Here are a few tips for executives and entrepreneurs:
Have a guiding principle to aid in decision-making. When you have to make a difficult decision under stress, you’ll reduce the pressure by having a core set of values to turn to for guidance and consistency. They are the beliefs and values that got you where you are.
Learn to assess the downside risk before making any decision.
Even though you’ll be the decision maker, have a diverse team who can examine the key parameters and give you honest, fearless feedback.
Jeffrey: One essential quality of an effective leader is a passionate commitment to their goals. In the entertainment industry, executives have always tried to copy the last successful project. Forrest Gump is the perfect example. It took ten years to get made. Nobody wanted to do it. Then it came out, was a box-office hit, and won the Academy Award. Everybody tried to copy it. Everyone failed. Why? Because they didn’t have someone like producer Wendy Finerman who was so passionate that she was able to get other people to feel the way she did.
Actively seek mentors. Find someone who knows more than you. Absorb as much as you can. Study their methods, work habits, and how they treat people. Then return the favor and mentor the generation behind you.
One of my bosses regularly brought her staff into her office and revealed a fully fleshed out business plan. She wanted our approval not our contributions. Don’t insist that yours is the only right position. People will feel unappreciated and uninspired. Spend time studying the corporate culture you are entering and reward great ideas. No one gets anywhere alone.
Adam: What do you believe are the defining qualities of an effective leader? How can leaders and aspiring leaders take their leadership skills to the next level?
Peter: Here are a few essential skills for effective leadership:
Be approachable. You want to be the first one to hear about problems rather than the last.
Be inclusive. Structure your company or division in such a way that if you succeed, everyone else will also succeed proportionately. The bigger their stake, the more valuable their contributions.
Lead by example. If you are well informed, encourage diverse opinions, promote collaboration, enthusiastic and empathic (This is just the beginning of a long list that you can easily fill out) you will create the kind of culture that helps employees thrive.
Jeffrey: A useful way to examine good leadership is to contrast it with bad leadership. I’ve worked for my share of Screamers. Early on I worked for someone who would yell, “I know I asked for your opinion, but I hoped you wouldn’t give it to me.” Let’s not even talk about the people who kick over coffee tables or throw iPhones. You never want to be that person.
By contrast, my first producing partner, the man who mentored me, exemplified everything that’s right about leadership. He was honest. He’d tell backers they might not break even on a film or television project but he had so much enthusiasm and belief, they put their faith in him. He taught me that everybody should have a voice in how things are run in any environment. When someone showed creativity, he validated it by supporting them. He demonstrated loyalty. He walked away from a major deal because the company was only willing to give the person who brought him the project an associate producer credit. That’s a great model to follow for experienced or emerging leaders.
Adam: What is the single best piece of advice you have ever received?
Peter: “When your mouth is full of hot soup…the next thing you’re going to do is wrong.” Learn to identify dangerous hotspots in your business and take your time to minimize the biggest downside risk(s).
Jeffrey: My most influential mentor, my dad, gave me three connected pieces of advice. I try to pass them along to my students. First, don’t throw away an idea for a project. You never know when you’ll find a place for it. Second, work with people who are more experienced and smarter than you. Third, if you are passionate about your work money may follow, but you can’t create anything unique if all you’re interested in is financial success.
Adam: Is there anything else you would like to share?
Peter: I’d like to share my mailbox full of bills, but if that’s not an option, I’d like to share this final thought… Learn to expand your view of problem solutions so when your alternatives appear to be binary look deeper and find additional alternative actions. Effective problem solvers look for a way to increase the number of choices they have when facing difficult choices. For example, if someone tries to corner you and demands an answer: “We have to know now, do you want to buy the building or not?” It looks like a binary choice, but it would be nice if your thoughts went to…or rent, or lease, or sublet or put a conglomerate together to buy it, or find a better building, or request more time, or offer them a share in your business, or...
Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.
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