Thirty Minute Mentors Podcast Transcript: Interview with Nobel Prize Winning Scientist Dr. Lou Ignarro

I recently interviewed Dr. Lou Ignarro on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: My guest today is a Nobel Prize winning scientist Dr. Lou Ignarro had done groundbreaking research in nitric oxide that paved the way for the development of one of the most commercially successful drugs of our day, viagra. Dr. Narrow is a professor emeritus at UCLA Medical School, where he has won 12 Golden Apple teaching awards. Lou, thank you for joining us.

Lou: It's great to be here, Adam. I look forward to the interview.

Adam: I'm looking forward to it. Only in America, could the son of an uneducated carpenter, receive the Nobel Prize in Medicine. Those are your words. How did the son of an uneducated carpenter, become a scientist, let alone a Nobel Prize winning scientist? And what sparked your interest in science and learning? And who were the earliest influences in your career trajectory?

Lou: That's a fantastic question and I get that asked fairly often. And let me just tell you that my mom and dad were completely uneducated. Formerly, neither parent went to any kind of school, not even Elementary School. Indeed, mom's English was poor. And dad didn't start speaking English until I was about 10 years of age. They're both immigrants from Italy. And I remember in the first grade, the teacher called my parents into school for a meeting and told my parents that my English was very poor, but my Italian was great. And the teacher said that I might have difficulty learning the material unless my English improved. So after hearing that mom stopped speaking Italian at home abruptly and quickly learned how to speak English, but my dad was a very hard working carpenter. He never really learned to speak English. It was too many years later, and he could barely read Italian. So you see, that's the basis that I was coming from. Now, you know, my interest in science began, I mean, how did I get interested in science when they didn't even know what science was? Well, my interest in science began when I was about eight years of age. And I was fascinated with fireworks and rocket fuel. I guess most young kids are. But I actually went to the public library to look up how to make firecrackers at eight years old. That's when I first learned about gunpowder. And I first learned about Alfred Nobel, who invented dynamite. And before that he used gunpowder to make all of his explosives which the company used to build new roads and cut through tunnels and so on and so forth. And so I figured, if I'm going to do this, I need to convince my parents to buy me a chemistry set- a big chemistry set. My dad was okay with it but Mom said absolutely not. At first. However, I was able to convince her to change her mind. And over the next few years, I actually read the experimental manuals from several chemistry sets, and learned some chemistry and this was many years before I took any formal courses in chemistry. And you know, incidentally, I have to say that I was successful in making the loudest and most explosive firecrackers ever, that's for sure. And that's when my engagement with chemistry sets came to an end by action of my mother. But I was also intrigued with biology. I was told that I was the only kid on the block or at school, when I was eight or nine years old, that would always ask questions like, how come the eye can see and how come the nose can smell? How can the ear hear? You know, I would drive my parents and my teachers absolutely crazy by asking them such questions repeatedly. And as you can see, I developed a passion for the sciences, and wanted to learn as much as possible in school and outside of school, in the libraries. And this insatiable desire for information is what drove me to my career path in chemistry, and biology. I mean, I just couldn't get enough of it. There were so many questions to answer that I had in my mind and I was highly motivated. I have to tell you, even at that young age, to unravel the answers through any ways in which I could do this. At that time, I didn't even know what basic research was.

Adam: To the extent you had one, what was your daily routine in the 80’s and 90’s leading up to your Nobel prize?

Lou: Well, you know, of course, I had a daily routine, no question about it. And let me kind of briefly tell you what it was about; It's a lot of work. There's no question about it. I spent many long hours engaging myself totally. In addition to running a biomedical research lab I was heavily involved in teaching graduate and medical students. You know, most people who do research, they like to work in the laboratory, but they can't be bothered with teaching. But there are exceptions to that. I'm not putting them all down, but me, I love teaching as much as I love giving research. There was nothing more gratifying to me than to be able to explain a complex scientific principle or medical principle to a student and look at them out there sitting down and saying, “Oh, now I get it. Now I get it.” I mean, I used to get goosebumps thinking, you know, this was great, I was able to explain something that they understood. And as a result, and I think you pointed that earlier, I got many teaching awards for producing this. So here's a typical day at school; I would walk into my office and you may not believe me, but at 4:30 to 5:00 in the morning, every single morning, to prepare for my ADM lectures in physiology and pharmacology. After the lecture, I'd go back to the lab, I'd meet with my laboratory staff, students, postdoctoral fellows, to discuss experimental data and plan the next experiments every single day. The remainder of the day was spent writing research grant applications. You have to bring in your own money to do research. The school gives you the space, and the salary, but you have to get the money yourself to do the research. And then I spent a lot of time writing our studies up for publication in scientific journals and in between I read as much as I could on the work of others who were working in the same arena. And that was five days a week. On Saturday I didn't go into the lab. But Saturdays, I was home, in my bedroom, which I converted to a library. And that's where I spent many, many days thinking, not necessarily reading, Adam, but thinking, thinking, what should I do next? What have other people done? What do I need to do that's different? How am I going to answer this question? What direction should I go into? That was Saturday. Sunday was my favorite day, because I called Sunday “Never on Sunday”, and Sundays I enjoyed watching football, basketball, baseball and other sports.

Adam: And I think that's really important for listeners, whether that day is Sunday or Saturday or a different day of the week or a couple of hours in the middle of your day or at night, it's really important to take some personal time and to have hobbies. Like you, I'm a huge sports fan and I'm struggling right now without sports. So it's a little bit tough.

Lou: Oh my goodness, I have watched every rerun of the Super Bowl. Best baseball games. I mean to see, you know, Peyton Manning, battling against Tom Brady and to go back to see Jackie Robinson playing baseball and Duke Snider. I'm actually enjoying it like crazy. And I started a diet which I had 30 years ago, 40 years ago, and I found they still sell them in the stores. I'm eating beer nuts and eating them with beer it was great.

Adam: So for anyone tuning in, even though Lou has reached the greatest level of achievement in his field, there are not too many people out there that are Nobel Prize winners, right? It isn't all about work 24 hours a day, seven days a week, you need to take some time to recharge your batteries to be able to be as effective as possible when you are working. But when you are working, Lou, I was really impressed by your daily routine, how early you started, just how focused you are on achieving each component of what it is that you are doing in the course of your day. I want to go back to focusing.

Lou: Focusing is very, very important and not easy sometimes.

Adam: What are your best tips on the topic of focus and what advice do you have for listeners on how they can better focus?

Lou: Well, you know, like I said, focus can be difficult. It requires a lot of help from different directions. Firstly, I have to tell you; what I have found is that one must have a passion for what one is doing in order to focus on it. In my whole life, if I didn't have a passion for something, there was no way I could force myself to have a passion or focus on it. I mean, without passion it's easy to get distracted. And of course, distraction prevents focus, if you know what I mean. And secondly, you really have to believe in what you're doing. Even though others might say that you're crazy, you're wrong. You should take this direction, you should take that direction. I did that early on in my career, and none of them was ever right. I was always right. I go in my direction, if I think it is right. I mean, if you truly believe you are on the right track, go for it, no matter what it takes. And thirdly, being Italian and taking after my father, I mean, there are likely to be many falls along the way. But you must never give up. Never give up. And I used to always quote a saying from Nelson Mandela, who said, “The greatest glory in living lies not in never falling but in rising every time we fall.” And I, I mean, I thought about that every time I was having trouble in the lab, and experiments weren't working, and we were headed downhill. You know, it's really important, I think, to pay attention to what others have said, probably based on their own experiences.

Adam: Can you delve into that a little bit more deeply because you mentioned something that I think is extremely important, which I believe in strongly; you need to trust your gut. You need to trust your instincts. It's really important to surround yourself with people who are grateful sounding boards who can give you important advice, but at the end of the day, as a leader, you're the one that has to make tough decisions and tough calls and it's on you, it's on your shoulders. But you also alluded to moments of self doubt that you had personally and perhaps in your work. Can you talk about one or two of those moments and how you were able to overcome them?

Lou: Well, in terms of having some self doubt, you know, I did have some self doubt, but early on in my career, the most self doubt I ever had, and it was when I was in, in graduate school, just beginning my career. Okay, so I finished Columbia College. College hard enough, but you're not really doing any research. There's coursework. Yes, you're working in the laboratory, but it's not really research, not original research. So you go to graduate school, of course, you take more coursework, that was not a problem, but my fear was, if I may use that word, fear of failure, was not being able to actually do the research myself. Not being able to figure out what to do, how to do it and going forward. And so that was my fear. However, as time went on, and I was able to focus and get one experiment done, that would work. And then I would go on to the next experiment. And that would work. I felt much better about myself, my confidence greatly improved, and I was able to succeed. And so I guess, as I said before, my path to success encountered lots of ups and downs. Lots of ups and downs, but never any failures that I can identify, because I wouldn't allow that to happen. My father, you know, the word failure was not in his vocabulary, and nobody used failure around the home. You know, you just go do it. That's it. And so, I have always found that, you know, if something didn't work if you were falling down, you could overcome it with focus, motivation, and hard work. And then as I got older, I remember, in college, I remembered something that Winston Churchill used to say, during wartime. And I love this one. It's pretty popular. I'm sure you've heard of it. And that is that success is walking from failure to failure, with no loss of enthusiasm. I mean, I carried that on my shoulders for the 40 years that I worked in the laboratory. I just thought that was magnificent.

Adam: I love it. I think that that's a brilliant line. I think that that's a brilliant mindset and attitude and something that I often tell people is and something, Lou, I'm gonna ask you is, when I went to UCLA Business School, so I was not at UCLA Medical School. I tapped out of high school science. Oh, my skills were not that great. When I was at UCLA business school, I don't know if you have built a relationship at all with Richard Riordan, the former mayor of LA.

Lou: Oh, yes. After I was awarded the prize in ‘98, as you can imagine, many people became my friends. And he was one of them. And I really liked him. He was a great gentleman, great guy.

Adam: Richard Riordan was a professor of mine while I was in Business School, and we developed a really strong, personal relationship through that experience. And one of the things that Mayor Riordan told us in class and would tell us all the time, is only a mediocre person never makes a mistake. And the way that I've interpreted that in my career and in the talks that I give to audiences, and in what I tell my team and people who I lead; mistakes are inevitable. If you're not making a mistake, it just means that you're either not trying or you're not intellectually honest. What ultimately matters is the way that you respond to mistakes. Are you learning from them? And are you staying positive? If you make a mistake, and you get completely demoralized by it, or if you make a mistake, and you don't learn your lesson from it, then you're not going to be the better for it. But, Lou, to your point, if you make a mistake, or if you quote unquote, fail, and it becomes an educational experience, and it becomes something that helps you improve, and you maintain a positive attitude and you push forward, but there's a reason why we call it the school of hard knocks. Better than any school, I went to even UCLA Business School.

Lou: Yes, I agree. 100%. And, you know, Albert Einstein thought that way, as well. And he always carried me and I apologize for all these crazy quotes. But you know, I love these people. I mean, they're so smart. They're so famous because they're smart, and they made very important comments, and I'm trying to get this one straight. I think what Albert Einstein said was that anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new. In other words, go after it and try something new. And if you make a mistake, it's okay. He made many mistakes. So I agree with you 100%.

Adam: I love that, Lou.

Adam: 1998; you're a professor at UCLA, a great year for you. Not a great year in baseball if you're an Angel fan, but then again, not too many great years in baseball.

Dr. Ignarro: That's true. Also not if you're a red wine drinker from Napa Valley. It was not a great year for Napa Valley Cabernet Sauvignon. ‘98 was one of the worst years. Damn it.

Adam: Interesting. Okay, learn something new every day. For listeners of this podcast, hopefully you are taking notes. So 1998, you're a professor at UCLA. And the next thing you know, you're a Nobel Prize winner. So I have a few questions to ask you about this. For listeners who are not particularly well versed in nitric oxide or in the process of scientific discovery, can you describe your process of discovery? What are some interesting anecdotes from the Nobel experience itself? And looking back, what are the best lessons applicable to all listeners that you learn from that journey?

Lou: I'd love to. I think about it all the time, and I'd love to spend the time with you. To answer your question; the process of discovery demands very strict adherence to a well thought out strategic plan, each focused on answering critically important questions, you know, either raised by me or raised by other scientists. And in my case, in my particular case, the overall picture was to find out what causes cardiovascular disease in some, but not all people. I'm sort of telling you where I was at the time so I can answer your question. You know, and in developing the strategic plans to answer this question, I had to develop a basic understanding of the factors that control or regulate cardiovascular function and in the body, but along the way, you know, I found myself using a lot of logic, you know, going from step A to step B, and I found that that was not enough to accomplish my mission, and I was getting frustrated. And so I felt that I had to think outside the box. I had heard someone else give me that advice and then I didn't know what he meant by that. And then it stuck with me; you really need to think outside the box. And just to give you an idea, again, I have another quote from Albert Einstein, who said, “Logic will get you from point A to point B. But imagination will take you everywhere.” And you know, and that's what I did. I mean, I was trying to think outside the box. I tried not to follow everyone in their footsteps, to answer any particular questions. I had sort of come up with the questions. And of course, you can take any chance when you do this. And it's difficult sometimes to get started. But then, after a while, you sort of get the knack of it. And it's the right way to go. You really do have to have an imagination and think outside the box and go where other people have not yet gone.

Adam: Can you talk about the Nobel experience itself? Can you sort of walk us behind the scenes of what that experience was like?

Lou: Oh, the experience was, you know, unbelievable. I can give you a couple of anecdotal stories. I'll make them brief, I promise. But I've got a short story pertaining to when the Nobel Prize was announced, which is in October of ‘98. The Nobel prizes are always announced the first week in October. But I have to preface this by telling you that one of my discoveries was of a molecule called nitric oxide. It's also called No, and that it's released from the nerves, resulting in penile erection and sexual arousal. We made that discovery in 1992. Now, before this discovery, the causes of erectile dysfunction were totally unknown. And there were no drugs whatsoever available to treat erectile dysfunction, which affects over 10% of the male population. And so as a consequence of my work, the Pfizer pharmaceutical company developed and launched Viagra for the treatment of erectile dysfunction. And Viagra works by increasing the action of the nitric oxide that I just told you about. Here goes the story. So the announcement of the approval of Viagra by the FDA came in March of ‘98. Just six months later, in 1998, in October, the announcement was made for the Nobel Prize dealing with nitric oxide. And so I thought for a moment, is this a coincidence or what? And so I decided to look up the members of the Nobel Committee in medicine, and I found that the majority of them were men. It's okay with me. I'll take the Nobel however I get it. It sounds like there might be some kind of connection between the Nobel Prize and the Nobel Peace Prize. I mean, there. I think that there is. So it caught. I think what it really did, because I don't know if I caught the attention of the committee members of the field with nitric oxide. I mean, they were always on top of the field of no for many years before that, but I think that that was the icing on the cake. And they must have said, Oh, come on. Well, you got it. We got to give nitric oxide a Nobel Prize.

Adam: That's incredible.

Lou: And then I have another anecdote. It's pretty funny. So after the announcement of the Nobel Prize in October, but before the ceremony in Stockholm, in December, President Clinton, Bill Clinton invited the American Nobel laureates and their spouses to the White House, that's in November of 98. So at one point during this celebration, we were asked to meet with the First Lady Hillary Clinton in a separate room without the president being present. So she walked up to each of us individually and asked us kindly to explain in simple terms, what we did to warrant the Nobel Prize. And things were moving along just fine until she came to me and looked into my eyes. And instead of asking a question, she made a statement; Oh, I know what you did. I responded by saying, “No, no, Mrs. Clinton, I did not discover Viagra. I did the research that made it possible to develop the drug.” Finally after a pause she said, “That's the same thing.” And so I thought it best to keep my mouth shut because November of ‘98 was, of course, smack in the middle of the Monica Lewinsky affair, and I did not think Mrs. Clinton was in the mood.

Adam: I love that. Lou, what do you believe are the keys to driving innovation and how can leaders build a culture that is efficient?

Lou: That's such an important question. And I wish we would see more of that. I think that because I see what's happening around us, I see what was happening in the 1960’s and 70’s with biomedical research and other forms of research. There was more progress, there was more incentive, there was more motivation. The key to driving innovation is being given the opportunity and freedom to drive your cause. You know, I'm speaking as a scientist because that's the only thing I've ever been. You know, as a scientist, I was so fortunate to be working in the United States of America, where original, basic research is praised and promoted. And funded by the government. I mean, there's nothing like the U.S. for a career in basic research, especially in the biomedical field. Regarding the government, nearly every administration, except maybe for the present one, and I'll stop there, has supported basic research, scientific research. There are two national organizations we have that provide competitive funds to support young and established investigators. These are the National Institutes of Health, which I think most people have heard of, and it's also the National Science Foundation. Nearly all of my basic research that led to the Nobel Prize was funded by competitive research grants from the National Institutes of Health, a government organization, and because of this U.S. government support, even I, as the son of an uneducated immigrant was able to climb to the top of my profession, and be awarded the Nobel Prize. I mean, only in America. So clearly government leaders can easily foster a culture in science that engenders innovation by promoting basic research and attracting young investigators into the arena. And even outside the biomedical sciences the same principles apply. You know, we've got to have excellent and responsible leadership. That's key.

Adam: Lou, you've written quite extensively and speak quite extensively on the topics of health and wellness. What can we do to live healthier lives?

Lou: You know, the answer to that is so simple that no one ever believes me, Adam. I have spent the last 10 years of my career not doing experiments anymore, but explaining to people what I've learned from my experiments, and all the experiments out there conducted by others, so let me explain. And you know, I always wish I had a half hour television show every week where I could talk about this, but you know, they'd rather have Peyton Manning speak and Tom Brady, I understand that, I understand, no problem. I love to watch them. But you know, I've learned a great deal about health and wellness, from my own work on this molecule, nitric oxide, that I told you about. And anybody who wants to know more about nitric oxide can just Google it. But just remember, it's not nitrous oxide, it's nitric oxide,  then you'll know all about it. So our own work and the work of others documented that it is imperative to promote our production and action of nitric oxide in the body at all times. So this will undoubtedly slow or prevent the development of hypertension, stroke, and heart attack. That's right. So after our discovery of No, what came next was an avalanche of studies revealing that the most effective way to boost nitric oxide, believe it or not, is to eat a healthy diet and exercise regularly. I know you don't blame me, but you should go out and read it. It's true. For example, just make it very simple- eating fish products instead of fatty meats, eating fresh fruits and vegetables instead of potato chips, you know? Staying away from excess salt and sugar. All of these things will boost nitric oxide production, well documented in the literature, very well documented, and exercise. We've done some experiments, thousands of others have done experiments to show the more you exercise, the more your arteries make nitric oxide, and the lower the risk you have for developing cardiovascular disease than people leading a sedentary lifestyle. I'm not making that up. That's well accepted. And so I want you to keep in mind that more than half the cardiovascular disease in this country comes not from genetics. Don't let anybody tell you that, but rather from a poor lifestyle. This is very important for people to recognize and appreciate. If more than half comes from poor lifestyle, this means that more than half is avoidable and preventable. More than half. In other words, we are in control of our own destiny. And so why don't we do something about it? Well, that's why I spend so much of my time writing and speaking about it. And believe me, I have no more hair left on my head to lose by doing all this is so troublesome. So okay, so in a nutshell, two lines; what can we do to live healthier lives. Very simple indeed. Eat healthy and engage in a regular routine of physical activity. That's it. Forget special diets leaning toward protein and carbs and this and that. They don't work. Forget drugs, none of which work, and all of which carry risks. You know, I've always told people, Adam, that science is 10% fact and 90% common sense. Just have a little common sense. And you'll lead a healthy lifestyle.

Adam: That's really valuable advice and applied even beyond the specific question of how can we live healthier lives. I think it's really important to remember to follow the fundamental principles, understand the basics, master the basics, and don't lose sight of them. So I think that's great advice. Lou, I want to ask you one last question. You've been a professor for almost 50 years. What are the best lessons that you've taught your students in how to succeed professionally, and how to succeed in life?

Lou: Well, I've spoken to many of my students and postdocs and even people who are not in science. I think that the most important lesson that I learned from my long and arduous journey in biomedical research, but it could be any kind of research is to never give up. Pardon me for splitting and infinitive, but never give up. I have found that to be so true. If you believe in something, you go after it. And no matter what others may tell you, you know, you can listen to their advice and so on. And take that with a grain of salt, but never give up. If you believe in something you really have to go after it. And the other thing I would say is and I mentioned this earlier, and that is that. Another lesson learned was to think outside the box. This is so difficult to do because you have to make up things on your own, you know, you're solving a problem and you're moving forward, it is so easy to move in the footsteps of others. It's so easy to move in the footsteps of others. But what you really need to do is you need to create those footsteps yourself, do something different, but stay on on course. And I remember as my final quote I'll give you from Ralph Waldo Emerson, which really does apply and what he says is, “Do not go where the path may lead, go instead, where there is no path and leave a trail.” And you know, that always makes me teary eyed whenever I read that, because that's what you have to do with so many people. If you look at what other people do, they do the same thing, but they try to make it better. You see that a lot in the automotive industry. Okay, when the Japanese first came out with the cars years and years ago they did what we did with the American cars, but they tried to make it better. And they didn't do anything new. And you see a lot of that in science. But the idea is you've got to be one step ahead of that and do something new, create something new so that other people can follow in your footsteps. In other words, thinking outside the box. That's the best way to make progress. But it is not easy. I admit that.

Adam: Lou, thank you so much for all of your wisdom for everything you shared. And thanks again for joining us. Well, thank you.

Dr. Ignarro: Well, thank you, Adam. It was a great, great pleasure.

Adam: The pleasure was mine.