I recently interviewed Lieutenant General Jack Gardner on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:
Adam: Our guest today spent 35 years serving in the United States Army with tours in Europe, Latin America, Asia, Bosnia, Iraq, and multiple locations inside the United States. Lieutenant General Jack Gardner was the commander of the United States Army South and the deputy commander of the United States European Command, and is the founder and director of the 21st Century Job Skills Project. General Gardner, thank you for joining us.
Jack: Adam, thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Lieutenant General Gardner: Pleasure’s mine. You grew up in Columbus, Ohio. You’re a huge Ohio State Buckeyes fan and a big sports fan in general. You bleed scarlet and gray, but you went to college at West Point, kicking off your career in the military. Can you take listeners back to your early days? What early experiences and lessons shaped your worldview and the trajectory of your success?
Lieutenant General Gardner: I think, like a lot of people, I had a number of people who dramatically influenced me when I was young. One was my dad, probably more than anybody. Great man, one of the best men I’ve ever known, and he probably influenced me more than anybody. I had a couple of coaches, a grade school football coach, Felix Paden, who was just a great guy who had ways of bringing groups together at a young age, besides helping us learn how to play football and try to win games. He helped us try to understand life. Then in high school, I had two coaches. Same thing, they both were great coaches and were focused on developing a good team and a winning team, but they also were focused on helping grow young men with lessons that had nothing to do with football. My dad and my coaches probably influenced me most. And I was fortunate that I had those influences. I met a lot of people in the military who never did and had to find that somewhere else, that influence. And then when I joined the military, I had a number of folks that I worked with, who I continued to learn from, and it continued to shape how I saw the world and how I operated. In a lot of ways, I’ve been extremely lucky. I came from a stable family, had great influences, had great teachers and coaches, and I was very lucky to have that.
Adam: What compelled you to go to West Point? And what were the best lessons that you learned during your time at West Point that helped shape you as a leader?
Lieutenant General Gardner: I finished high school in ’72, and at the time, the military wasn’t particularly popular. It was coming out near the end of the Vietnam War. And I thought maybe I’d go to school, be an engineer. I like doing stuff outside, like sports. And I thought, well, the military would be interesting. And it seemed as though not a lot of people were interested at the time. And so I applied to West Point, wasn’t sure I’d get in, and was fortunate to get in. And then obviously it shaped the next 30, 40 years. Your first year. There’s a lot of stress intentionally put on new cadets, and you had to collaborate with your classmates. It’s kind of like collaborating with a sports team. Everybody was under the same level of stress. You had certain tasks to do, and the system forced you to work with people. And then we had people from all over the country, different backgrounds, and it forced you to realize that to survive and succeed, it’s not an independent sport. It’s a collective team sport. I think that was probably the biggest thing, particularly the first year I got out of it. I’d kind of seen that in high school and football, but it was different. It was literally how do you collaborate under stress with people that are completely different than you, different backgrounds, different interests. And that probably was the best thing I took out of West Point, other than it was also freeing my parents like that.
Adam: I could imagine. A lot of similarities between leadership in sports, leadership in business, leadership in the military, and leadership in any context. And one of those similarities is the importance of building winning teams. In your experience, what are the keys to building and ultimately leading winning teams?
Lieutenant General Gardner: I know you’ve interviewed a lot of leaders. You’ve met a lot of leaders. I’ve met a number of leaders in the military, business, and government. And you see some that are just natural leaders. You know, they walk into a room, the room kind of tilts toward them, they’re charismatic, and that just drives the organization. And for me, that’s not me. I’m not a natural leader. I’m introverted. When I was a captain, people weren’t saying, Hey, Captain Carter, he’ll be a general. You know, that just wasn’t the way it was. But I recognized, and I think you see this in most organizations, that to succeed. In every organization I was in at every level, we had really talented people. In many cases, I had very, very talented people who were more talented than I, who were at my level. And I could figure out how to leverage them to drive the organization forward. As a new lieutenant platoon leader in the 82nd at Fort Bragg, my first platoon sergeant and one of the squad leaders, they seriously thought part of their job was to help train me and help me succeed. And they did. I mean, we had a great platoon. It was as much more of them than it was of me. My second commander had a great first sergeant, had a couple of great platoon leaders, one of whom became a combatant commander years later. And the same thing, you know, this collective entity of these really talented people, you could leverage to help drive the organization. As a battalion commander, I had a couple of great XOs and S3s and commanded an infantry battalion in Korea. Command Sergeant Major Andrew Adams is one of the best NCOs in the Army in the last 50 years. The same thing. They were so talented. I could leverage them to help drive the organization. I realized that most organizations have a group of talented folks. If you can find them and leverage them, if you’re in charge, sometimes you have to check your ego because they do great work. They need the credit for it. But I quickly decided that was a way of achieving success in an organization. How do you leverage the real talent that’s around you? In many cases, more talented than you are if you’re the guy in charge. I think that’s one. Second, I think you have to be comfortable being yourself. This took me a while to get used to. I mentioned I’m introverted. At times, I ran into guys who were bullies, and I would respond almost irrationally. It took a while to be comfortable with who I am and how I operate. Everybody needs to do that. And if you do that, it helps the organization. And the organization, in many cases, takes on the nature of the person in charge. One is you’ve got to build consensus, whether it’s a platoon leader talking to 20 soldiers or you’re a very Generally, given orders, you’re building consensus if you want to succeed long-term. Organizations that succeed long-term, whether it’s a pro team that has a great owner, general manager, and coach, or a business, that’s essential. And the last is, I think, that you have to read and learn. We all have personal experiences, but they’re limited. I think General Mattis Former combatant commander, has really emphasized reading to build your personal experiences. Your personal experiences are limited, but you can learn from others. To run an organization, you have to learn, especially in the field that’s in. The last one’s probably hard work. Those are essential for organizations. If I can add, though, that was from my time in the military. The world’s changing very rapidly. A new one for military leaders is that you have to be able to stay apolitical. Our country is becoming more and more politicized. The military is stuck in the forefront of that. And I think another task and leadership trait for a senior officer in any of the services is to be able to stay apolitical, stay above the fray, and focus on tasks at hand. And then the last one, it’s more apparent now, is how do you stay ahead of technological change? The Germans and the French both looked at technology in the 1930s. The Germans obviously figured it out. The French were unable to look past the near horizon. If you look at Azerbaijan and Armenia, a few years ago, they both had the same number of tanks, but Azerbaijan figured out drones and asymmetric capabilities. And as you see in Ukraine, it’s a whole different world. The last leadership trait is how you stay abreast of technology and open-minded enough to know, as things change, what’s relevant and what’s not. Those are different things, I think, in leadership. Some for the military and some for businesses, as the world changes around businesses, also.
Adam: You share so much great advice that I would love to dive into all of it. Starting off with the importance of surrounding yourself with great people and getting the most out of the people on your team. Leadership isn’t about being the greatest person in the room. It’s about having great people in the room and focusing on what you can do to extract the most out of the people you have. How can you, as a leader, empower the people around you to be their very best selves?
Lieutenant General Gardner: Most organizations, you know, who the people who are really talented, who really stand out. They carry a big load day-to-day in terms of requirements. Recognizing them and then allowing them and giving them the credit. You may be in charge, but you need to leverage their skills, you need to recognize their skills, and then you also need to help them advance. You know, I’ve known guys that were Exceptional battalion XOs, when I would say brigade commander, and a lot of them went on to be battalion brigade and flag officers, recognizing their talent and helping the institution recognize their talent so they continue to progress, because you want those people to change positions years down the road. It was a series of things, I think you need to do. You want to leverage them near term, and also to recognize so they feel like they’ve achieved something, and also the institution recognizes their talent and uses them in the future, and leverages that talent at a higher level.
Adam: You mentioned that a key for you to ultimately realize your potential as a leader was getting to a place where you are comfortable being yourself. You are introverted, and people might think of leaders as natural extroverts. I’ve interviewed many of America’s most successful leaders. I’ve interviewed a lot of great leaders who are introverts, and my question to you is, how did you get to a place where you were able to be comfortable in your own skin, and what advice do you have for anyone on how to get to a place where they’re comfortable in their own skin?
Lieutenant General Gardner: A lot of that is recognizing it and then also recognizing that there are different types of leadership. I grew up watching Pat in the movie. I thought, well, that’s a general. I’m obviously not Pat in any capacity. You have to recognize the different approaches and leadership styles. And once you feel comfortable with yours, after a few years, you start to see other leaders. I didn’t see much of this in high school or college, but after I’ve been in the Army for four years, you start to see whether it’s NCOs or their officers, different styles and what’s effective, what’s not, and which of those you can do because that’s you and which of those would not be appropriate for you because it would be awkward or wouldn’t look authentic. And then get comfortable with who you are and figure out that that’s the most effective you can be is if you’re comfortable with who you are and you act like you are and you’re not something you’re not. And for most people, just going through that process and recognizing they’ll eventually get to the point where they understand what their strengths are and understand that their experience and judgment are good, and whether you’re outgoing, introverted, or whatever.
Adam: There’s a really powerful balance between, on the one hand, studying others, understanding what other people are doing that is working, what other people are doing that isn’t working, what’s effective, what’s not effective. And at the same time, understanding who you are, knowing yourself, recognizing your own unique style, is what makes you. Not trying to be anyone else, not trying to be General Patton or not trying to be George C. Scott portraying General Patton, but trying to be the best version of you.
Lieutenant General Gardner: Yeah. Each individual needs to get comfortable with their style and their approach. The other half of it is that your boss needs to help you make that. For example, as a new lieutenant, my battalion commander and company commander are both very good. They recognized quickly what I was, and they tried to help me, and they didn’t try to make me be something I wasn’t. They tried to leverage me as I was to give examples about approach issues. And if you’re the senior guy, same thing. When you look across this group of people you work with directly back to you’ll find really talented people. Some may be extremely outgoing, some may be introverted. They did personality approaches. But how do you help them understand who they are and succeed as they are, as opposed to trying to get them to be something else? Part of it’s a personal development thing. Part of it is as a leader, helping people below you recognize what their strengths are, leverage those, and help them identify what their leadership style is. And again, the people who are just talented, how do you help the institution recognize that they’re very good and they need to be senior, whatever business or whatever occupation it is. In many cases, some who are not outgoing may be incredibly talented and effective, but they don’t get the notoriety. They don’t get the appreciation. So sometimes it’s up to the leaders to make sure they do so that the institution recognizes them long-term.
Adam: Do you have any advice specifically for people who identify as introverts on how to excel as leaders?
Lieutenant General Gardner: Yeah, it’s a hard one. Recognizing that you don’t have to be General Patton necessarily to be successful either in the military or as a CEO or as a coach. Part of it also is feeling comfortable with yourself, and also watching other people and finding people that may be similar to your personality-wise that are successful, and see what approaches they take to challenges, stress, and everything else. You’ll eventually find that there is a wide range of leadership styles, personality traits, and you’ll identify things you can relate to and maybe adopt as part of your own technique.
Adam: You’ve mentioned a couple of the really good leaders who’ve been around who helped influence your style as a leader. You’ve also been around some pretty notorious leaders. I’m going to throw a couple of names at you. Saddam Hussein, Tariq Aziz, not exactly the nicest of people. What did you learn from your time spent with Saddam Hussein and with Tariq Aziz while you were leading in Iraq?
Lieutenant General Gardner: It was interesting. I had held both of them in U.S. facilities, and I occasionally would talk to Saddam, largely the official formal interrogation and getting official information from him. It was done long before I got there. My task was to meet with him occasionally just to make sure that he was doing okay physically and mentally. And he was able to see his lawyers as part of his defense. He had been charged at that point had been charged. And so I just tried to assess how he was doing in a casual conversation, which, if you can do that with that type of person, it’s not exactly easy. But it was fascinating because he would be very formal and polite to m,e and I think my predecessor and other generals. He’d be formal, would want to talk about important topics, substantive topics, officially. And with some of the young soldiers around him, he’d try to be kind of like a grandfather, like most strongmen. I suspect if you met Hitler, Mussolini, people throughout history who are totalitarian, they are probably very good at playing the eddies. They can be friendly at one point in time and not at another point in time. I think that’s just how they get in power. They’re able to manipulate people. And he was pretty effective. I had a handful of conversations with him, and I was fascinated, which made me think that if you look at people across history, there’s a reason they succeed. And it’s kind of scary because their personalities can adjust to the environment to achieve an outcome at that point in time. Tariq Aziz, I met a couple of times. One, he’d asked to see me, and he said he had surrendered to the Americans, not to the Iraqis. When we held him, he was in our physical custody, but he was in Iraqi legal custody. He was also being charged by the Iraqi High Tribunal. And his comment was, while I surrendered to the Americans, I want to be addressed by the American criminal justice system because it’s fair and honest. The Iraqi one’s not. And it was kind of a good issue, you know, that he was in their custody and the U.S. was helping the Iraqis run the Iraqi High Tribunal so that it was an honest, fair process. I thought kind of ironic that kind of a henchman who wasn’t exactly a liberal Democrat found value in the American criminal justice system and on a value of a system that is completely different than what they had in Iraq. There’s an irony in there.
Adam: You’ve served in a number of different leadership roles in Iraq, one of which was leading the prison system in Iraq. You were leading in highly adverse conditions. What were the keys to motivating the people you led, and what are your best tips on the topic of motivation?
Lieutenant General Gardner: In Iraq, interesting, I found most of the people that came in because they’d all volunteered, and our mission was unique. Most were self-motivated. You know, I was impressed every day by people at different levels who were trying to come up with different techniques for a complex mission, and just trying to recognize that as best you can. At times, I probably didn’t do that at the level I needed to. Long-term is another complex issue. Part of it is how do you help recognize people who are doing well? Everybody likes some level of recognition, especially if you’re working hard near term. And then also, how do you recognize people long term so that they value being part of the organization, whether it’s your battalion or whether it’s United States Army? Part of that is helping institutions recognize that Mike or Beth is talented and they may be a company commander now or a platoon sergeant now, but they need to, at some point, be a brigade commander or a command sergeant major. And so I think motivation is both short-term and long-term kind of encouragement and support.
Adam: And that goes against what many people might think a general would say about how to motivate people, which isn’t through yelling and screaming and fear and intimidation, but rather through encouragement and through showing that there’s a path to success, defining success, and doing what you can as a leader to lead your team toward those goals, toward that success.
Lieutenant General Gardner: Exactly. I worked for a number of senior folks who were just like that. I was lucky. I’d worked for Admiral Jim Stavridis. He was the commander when I was in Europe and the Yukon. I worked for General George Casey in Iraq, worked for General Dave Petraeus in Iraq. And all three were like that. They were very thoughtful. They were focused on the mission. They were focused on fundamentally what was being done right. And they weren’t the patent motive leader. They were kind of in between. They were forceful and needed, but they were thoughtful. And led by motivating people as opposed to by force or whatever, I guess, however you want to describe that.
Adam: What can leaders do to most effectively lead in adverse conditions and lead under pressure?
Lieutenant General Gardner: Part of it goes back to how you stay calm and understand the environment, given that it’s very complex? And how do you bring in people at different levels that can help you understand a complex environment? And everybody has their own approach to how to try to stay mentally stable in very stressful situations. A couple of people gave me similar advice over the years, especially if you’re in a relatively stressful job that goes on for a lengthy period, not just for three or four hours, but if it’s more enduring, a couple of weeks to a couple of months, maybe a year. And it was eat, sleep, exercise, and think. And this is a 24-hour issue because it’s long-term. You have to get enough sleep so you’re coherent. You have to eat. You have to do some level of exercise. And you have to think so that your mind’s not continually being overwhelmed by what the immediate task at hand is. So the ability to stay, one, focused and relatively calm mentally and physically, I think those four things are great advice. There are different derivations of that, but I think that’s good for anybody who’s in a long-term stressful situation.
Adam: As you were sharing the best lessons you learned in rising in your career, as you were sharing your framework for successful leadership, one of the things that you shared was the importance of adaptability, flexibility, and staying ahead of technological change. And that’s a huge focus for you today in the work that you do as the director of the 21st Century Job Skills Project. As a leader, how can you build an organization that is adaptive, that’s flexible, and how can you personally most effectively navigate the kind of change that all leaders ultimately have to face?
Lieutenant General Gardner: Yeah, that’s a great timely question for our military and for our business community and for our government. The pace of change in all these areas, technology has changed dramatically in our lifetime, but it’s accelerating at an almost unmanageable pace. I think, for example, for the military, just looking at it from Azerbaijan or Armenia to Ukraine, to how do you stay ahead of technological change so you’re not caught flat-footed by an opponent. And you look at Germany and France in the 1930s, Germany figured out technology and created an approach faster than France. And we saw the results of that in 1940. The challenge for the military now is how the leaders understand technology, understand you need large systems, small systems, you need a lot of drones, you need aircraft carriers, there’s a whole series of things, very complex. How do you think your way through that and project what’s going to happen in the next five or 10 years? Same for businesses. If you’re a CEO or have a small company, how do you leverage technology that doesn’t put you out of business or keep you at the front end? It’s a huge challenge. I think it’s gotten harder because the pace of change has increased dramatically. The last five years, but in the last six months, this has continued to accelerate. I think that’s now increasingly going to become a key leader trait. How do you understand technology, the impact on your organization, larger environment, and stay open-minded to being able to adapt things that are relevant and rapidly digest lessons and discernment, which ones are valid, which ones are not. And that’s just a complex task that most of us don’t grow up doing. So it’s a huge challenge. A number of years ago, I was still in the Army. I remember seeing a Seattle Times headline that talked about high school graduation rates. And I found it interesting. It’s not something I’d ever looked at. And for the next 10, 15 years, I was still in the Army. I tracked high school graduation rates in the U.S. and youth employment rates. And I realized that they were lower than I thought. And there were some different challenges that I’d never understood. While I was in the Army, I had the opportunity to work in 30, 35 countries and had the opportunity in that process to see how different countries approach education and employment, and pass to employment, and what worked and what didn’t work. And if you look at the United States right now, about 18 to 20% of the households live on an income of $30,000, $35,000 a year or less, which is difficult. It’s difficult to live anywhere in the US, especially in a metropolitan area. And if you look at the middle class over the last 20 years, it’s decreased somewhat. The top 20% have grown some, and the bottom 20% have grown some. A lot of that has been driven by technological change and a host of other factors. But technological change and loss of manufacturing over time have been big factors. And because of that, I thought, well, is there a way to systemically approach things much like other countries do? And we started a small program in Massachusetts with the goal of how do you build a systemic process that enables every published full student to achieve a true living wage job, and kind of overlay these series of activities and tasks on top of the public education system. And it’s been moving along, but I’ve realized in the last six or seven months that the world is changing even faster. We went through a period where we lost manufacturing and technological advancement. We’re impacting wages and labor. We’re at a point now with AI and robotics, and it’s going to be accelerated dramatically. I think that the AI revolution will be as impactful as the industrial revolution, agriculture, the widespread use of electricity, and the internet. AI will disrupt white-collar jobs significantly. It will replace a lot of white-collar jobs. Robotics will dramatically change assembly lines, construction, and home care, and all these will have a huge impact on the workforce, wages, and household incomes in the U.S. And I think we have an opportunity and a challenge. If we don’t get organized for the task, we have the potential of exacerbating our problem, where we’ll have more than 18 to 20 percent living on $30,000, $35,000, $40,000 a year. But if we organize and address the task systemically, we can dramatically grow the middle class. A lot of jobs, high-paying jobs, will be generated, huge wealth regenerated, but we need to address this systemically. And so we’re trying to modify our program in Massachusetts to now reflect this growing change. I think it’s urgent. To me, it’s our Battle of Britain. It’s a huge challenge that needs to transcend our political divide. It needs a big systemic effort and response. You know, I think it’s a tremendous opportunity, and we’re trying to figure out how to kind of bring all that down. And a lot of it’s the reading thing. How do you understand the world? How do you stay abreast of the pace of change and whether it’s technology, the application, or techniques, and then also be willing to accept, you know, you may be decent at it, but you’re likely going to have people in your organization that are very good at that. And it’s back to how do you find the talent, and leverage the talent, and listen to them. because they may see some aspect of the technology or the technique, or the approach that you or others don’t. And how do you leverage those guys? The guy who figured out how to put the shredder on the front of a Sherman tank to get through the hedgerows in France after the Normandy invasion, it just came out of nowhere. No one knew what to do. And this guy came up with a solution. You’ve got that now. Somewhere there are people who understand the pace of change, whether it’s the military, the government, or businesses, and find those people and give them the freedom and opportunity to express and drive a program that others may not recognize exists or may not see the value of. That’s just hard to do. In big organizations, it’s really hard. It’s interesting because my professional life was in the military and my experiences with the military, federal government, U.S., international organizations, non-NGOs, and not communities. And this is based on a community. So I quickly realized my skillset and my experiences are limited. So, back to learning. I had to learn how communities function, who the stakeholders are in a community, and operating in a community at the state level required me to understand a surge of things that I was not required to as an Officer in the United States Army. So first was to learn and understand the environment I’m operating in, which took a fair amount of time. And second is back to leveraging the right people, finding the right people who are very talented, who can help in a complex environment. And I’m lucky I found a couple of those in the town who are doing this. And it’s back to find the right talent. The more talented you are, they understand the environment better than you do. How do you leverage them and reward them because you’re doing a great job, and make that collectively work as a successful venture? And that’s what we’re trying to do.
Adm: What can anyone do to become a better leader?
Lieutenant General Gardner: One, recognize who and what you are and be comfortable with it. As you see other leaders that you think are effective, and you see people that are similar to your style, adopt some of their approaches and their techniques, and how they deal with people. It’s still consistent with who you are as a person. And then on top of that, stay honest, stay focused, and recognize everything’s not about you.
Adam: You mentioned the importance of staying honest. I know that you’re a big believer in the importance of morality as a key driver of effective leadership.
Lieutenant General Gardner: I think most people recognize when people’s core intent is good. Like I mentioned, the three senior officers I’ve worked for they’re all incredibly smart, incredibly talented. They also, having had long conversations on complex issues with all three of them and others, at the base level, their intent was what was right and what was best for the country, not some other peripheral agenda. And I think that’s essential for most organizations, whether it’s military, the federal government, or a business, because I think if not, people in the organization will quickly see that, and it becomes disruptive.
Adam: A lot of what you’re speaking about is the link between moral leadership and servant leadership. If you lead with a moral compass, you’re going to care about the people you lead. You’re going to put other people first. You’re going to be a servant leader.
Lieutenant General Gardner: Yeah, I think exactly. People will recognize that.
Adam: What can anyone listening to this conversation do to become more successful personally and professionally?
Lieutenant General Gardner: One, I think, is back to read and try to learn. Life is a learning experience. I remember thinking in second, third grade. By the time I get out of either high school or college, I’ll have learned everything I need to know. In life, it’s just fun, and you’re playing all the time. And I realized I’m trying to digest more now, and I’m older than I was when I was eight, because I realized the world is changing. And if I want to understand it, operate in it, and enjoy it, I need to have a lifelong learning process. I think for everybody, it’s learning and, in our case, it’s learning things you didn’t realize were important at some point in time. I think that’s essential. And then I still think back to being comfortable with yourself and being true to yourself, because if you’re not, you won’t feel comfortable, you won’t be as effective, and the people at your work will recognize it pretty quickly.
Adam: General Gardner, thank you for all the great advice, and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors.
Lieutenant General Gardner: No, thank you. Appreciate it.
